Who is The Great Spirit?
Jonathan Rowe on May 25th 2007
Reader James J. Goswick responded to my post addressing James Madison’s alleged Christianity. I will admit with Madison and Washington, because of their reticence to explicate their specific creed, until we find more of their writings (if we ever do), there will always be some question. As James H. Hutson put it,
Seeking evidence of his faith quickly leads to the conclusion that there is, in the words of the poet, no there there, that in the mature Madison’s writings there is no trace, no clue as to his personal religious convictions….With Madison, unlike Jefferson or any of the other principal founding fathers with the possible exception of Washington, one peers into a void when trying to discern evidence of personal religious belief.
And because of the level of generality about which Madison spoke on God, Hutson notes, “[t]he very paucity of evidence has permitted a latitude of interpretation in which writers have created Madison in the image of their own religious convictions.”
Madison oft-used generic, philosophical lowest-common-denominator terms for God. However, “The Great Spirit” is not one of those terms, as Mr. Goswick asserts. Terms like “Providence,” “Nature’s God,” “Deity,” “Almighty,” “Supreme Being,”…these are the generic terms which Jews, Deists, Unitarians, Trinitarians, and even Muslims could speak pretending such is the same God they all worshipped. All of these groups (even Deists and Unitarians) could, in some sense, claim to worship “The God of Abraham” as a generic lowest-common-denominator. Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin, in a sense believed they worshipped such God, except with all of His “unreasonable” attributes edited out from the Bible, so that only those parts which showed God’s warmth and benevolence remained.
“The Great Spirit,” on the other hand, like the term “Allah,” is a specific title that the Native Americans have given to God. Just google that term and see. The Founding Fathers never used the term “The Great Spirit,” except when speaking to Native Americans, intimating that their pagan Deity was the same God they worshipped. I have counted Washington, Madison, and Jefferson each doing this numerous times. Adams probably did as well (after all, he believed Hindu and pagan Greek and Roman worship was “Christian”), but I haven’t yet found his quotations. For a taste, see Washington here, Jefferson here, and Madison here.
Finally, Madison almost certainly did not mean, as Mr. Goswick asserts “that the ‘Great Spirit’ is the Holy Spirit who is the third person of the triune God that is the same God of us all.” I understand how, because of the similarity of words, one might first grasp on to this notion. But upon further reflection this theory fails. These are different terms — “Great Spirit,” and “Holy Spirit.” The “Holy Spirit” it seems to me is the much neglected personality of the Triune Godhead, with most folks either discussing God the Father or the Son (so Trinitarians finally get around to discussing the Holy Spirit when talking to the Indians?). But most importantly, when Madison discusses The Great Spirit, his context refutes Mr. Goswick’s notion. Madison stated: “The Great Spirit who is the father of us all, approves them.” The Holy Spirit is not “the father of us all.” That utterly confuses the distinct personalities of the Triune Godhead. It makes no more sense than to say Jesus is God the Father. Jehovah/Yahweh, not Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit, are proper names for God the Father.
Moreover, because Allah at least purports to be the God of Abraham (the Native American’s “Great Spirit” does not), referring to God as “The Great Spirit” is even less orthodox than referring to God as Allah.
All of this, it seems to me, confirms my thesis that according to the key Founders, including Madison,
God is Jehovah to the Jews, Allah to the Muslims, the Great Spirit to the Native Americans. And these are different names for the same generic “Providence” they worshipped. Though, as theological unitarians, they didn’t believe that Jesus was God, rather that he was a great moral teacher who may have been a man (Socinian) or some kind of divine being created by and subordinate to God (Arian).
Filed in The Belfry
This inquiry may prove James Madison contradicted
himself, so there is no firm way to make a judgment on
his faith.
Madison could easily believe the “Great Spirit” who is
the God of us all, is generic, since he claimed to
Christians that the bible is a divine revelation.
According to memorial and remonstrance, James Madison
has contradicted himself:
“Because, the policy of the bill is adverse to the
diffusion of the light of Christianity. The first wish
of those who enjoy this precious gift(Christianity),
ought to be that it may be imparted to the whole race
of mankind. Compare the number of those who have as
yet received it(Christianity) with the number still
remaining under the dominion of false Religions; and
how small is the former! Does the policy of the Bill
tend to lessen the disproportion? No; it at once
discourages those who are strangers to the light of
(revelation)(Christianity) from coming into the Region
of it; and countenances, by example the nations who
continue in darkness, in shutting out those who might
convey it(Christianity) to them. Instead of levelling
as far as possible, every obstacle to the victorious
progress of truth(Christianity), the Bill with an
ignoble and unchristian timidity would circumscribe
it, with a wall of defence, against the encroachments
of error.”
James Madison
Memorial and Remonstrance
Since Madison claimed Christianity to Christians as
the truth, to avoid a contradiction, it is more
reasonable to believe the “Great Spirit” is a generic
term, or there is a contradiction, which I doubt
happened. That Madison had a Christian pastor, had
Christian pastors give prayer meetings at his house,
and his closest friends say he believed the bible was
divine, should rebuke the other viewpoint. No comment should be made on Madison and his faith, besides, he’s a little fish compared to the other framer’s.
His “unreasonable” attributes edited out from the
Bible, so that only those parts which showed God’s
warmth and benevolence remained.>>
God is not unreasonable, because He is a God of love,
man is unreasonable. Man’s view of justice, love, and
benevolence is flawed, where God is Holy.
All of this, it seems to me, confirms my thesis that
according to the key Founders, including Madison>>
Talk about “unreasonable,” this is an unreasonable statement as well as incorrect. You neglect more important framer’s. Let’s look and see how key your Madison and Jefferson really are.
Jefferson didn’t have anything to do with the govt. of the nation as he disqualified himself regarding the Constitution in a letter to Dr. Priestly on June 19, 1802. He gets credit for being President because it helped develop the nation. He’s only the principal author of the Declaration because Adam’s declined to do it. Sherman was more qualified than Jefferson.
Madison too, disqualified himself from being the significant spokesman on the Constitution and its intent.
“You give me a credit to which I have no claim in calling me “the writer of the Constitution of the United States…It ought to be regarded as the work of many heads and many hands.”
James Madison
The Letters and Other Writings of James Madison (New York:R. Worthington, 1884), Vol IV, pp. 341-342, to William Cogswell on March 10, 1834.
Madison’s proposal for the first amendment was shelved, as well as 40 of his 71 proposals during the Convention failed.
“The Constitution Madison initially sought was far removed from the final document.” The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, Max Farrand, editor (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1911). P 205-209
A 19th century historian said Roger Sherman, Washington, Charles Pinckney, Madison, and Hamilton were the “master-builders of the Constitution.
Madison opposed a bill of rights, he only relented when he realized he was wrong. In the end, others are considered more “key founders” than Madison.
Gouverneur Morris spoke the most at the convention and he was the head of the committee which created the final wording for the Constitution. As the penman of the Constitution, he’s more of an authority on the Constitution than Madison or Jefferson, and he said,
“education should teach the precepts of religion and duties of man towards God.” Jared Sparks, The Life of Gouverneur Morris (Boston: Gray and Bowen, 1832), Vol III, p. 483. There goes the lie of separation of church and state.
Gouverneur Morris signed and helped form our second form of govt, the Articles of Confederation, as well as a minister to France, U.S. Senator, and an author of legal commentaries.
James Wilson is also more of a key founder than Madison, as he’s one of only six men who signed both the Declaration and the Constitution, he was the second most active speaker at the convention. He was a better speaker than Madison, lawyer, diplomat, and judge, was a professor of Law, a supreme court justice, an author of legal works, and co-author of the first commentaries of the Consitution.
Alexander Hamilton is definitely more important than Jefferson or Madison. He was the leader and first man over the wall at Yorktown, which sealed the defeat for the British. The Federalist Papers were his idea; national currency, a national bank, the stock market, govt. involved in industry.
This is Hamilton’s nation, not Madison’s or Jefferson’s. The internet, interstate commerce, technology, future systems of coin and credit, were all envisioned from the mind of Alexander Hamilton.
What about Roger Sherman? You haven’t even mentioned him. He’s the greatest founder of the United States, the only man to sign all four documents of our govt, the articles of association, articles of confederation, the declaration, and the Constitution. He was the one who planned the two different houses in congress! He probably tripled the amount of offices and committees of Madison and Jefferson. Guaranteed, the Declaration did not go through without his approval.
Madison gets no credit for being President, since it was after the country was established and developed. What about Elbridge Gerry? He’s more of a key founder than both Jefferson and Madison. He was Vice President, signed the Articles of Confederation, and the Declaration, and would have signed the Constitution had he wanted to. He led the fight AGAINST Madison for a Bill of Rights, which he won. He was also a member of the Continental Congress for 7 years!
In the end, Madison was a contradiction, who was weak in character as well as physically, changing his friends as well as views at the whim of a hat. No comment should be made about his faith, or if there is, his pastor, and neighbors said he believed the bible was divine.
And the key founders? There were many other men more important than Madison or Jefferson. Roger Sherman or Alexander Hamilton are the key framer’s.
Regards.
On Madison, the Remonstrance and speech to the Natives, to avoid contradiction, we could view him as doing the same thing with both crowds: To the evangelical Christians, speaking as though their religion was true, and to the Native Americans, doing the same. This fits with theistic rationalism which believes that all religions worship the same God.
Given that the M&R was written in 1785 and the speech to the Indians in 1812, his religious views could have become more deistic and universalistic with age (some people’s religious views DO change as they age you know).
Or he could have just simply contradicted himself. Human beings are not without contradiction. Indeed, you called him a contradiction at the end of your post.
Further, I have notes Madison recorded (not sure whether they are online) in preparation for the Memorial and Remonstrance where he specifically includes Jefferson’s and Adams’ Unitarianism/Cafeteria Christianity in the definition of “Christianity.” (Though, he gives no clue as to which version, if either, of “Christianity” he believes in). Indeed, he notes if “Christianity” is to be supported with govt. $$, what is Christianity? In Mass. where teachers of “Protestant Christianity” were by law funded with govt. $$, a huge amount of such aid went to Congregational Churches which preached theological unitarianism, theological universalism, and elevated reason over revelation (in other words which taught Jefferson’s and Adams’ infidel unitarian Christianity). To orthodox Christians, this counted as “heresy” legally established as Christianity. He notes this would make judges deciders of heresy and what counted as “true Christianity.” For Madison, it wouldn’t be worth if for either side — Trinitarians or Unitarians. In any event, the thrust of the Remonstrance was to argue for separation of Church & State, and that such was compatible with and even demanded by a proper understanding of “the Christian religion.”
“That Madison had a Christian pastor, had Christian pastors give prayer meetings at his house, and his closest friends say he believed the bible was divine, should rebuke the other viewpoint.”
To whom are you referring, and where are the quotations?
“No comment should be made on Madison and his faith….”
Why not? Why not look at what actual Founding era figures had to say about Madison and his beliefs, for instance, Bishop Meade, one of the most important Founding era historical figures from Madison’s own Church who noted:
“I was never at Mr. Madison’s but once, and then our conversation took such a turn–though not designed on my part–as to call forth some expressions and arguments which left the impression on my mind that his creed was not strictly regulated by the Bible.”
“besides, he’s a little fish compared to the other framer’s [sic].”
So now you see that Madison is not turning out to be your kind of Christian, you seek to minimize his importance. He was the 4th President of the nation and the chief architect of the US Constitution.
“In the end, Madison was a contradiction, who was weak in character as well as physically, changing his friends as well as views at the whim of a hat.”
And worse, you personally attack him.
I agree that Hamilton, Wilson, and G. Morris were also “key Framers” and my research shows they were theistic rationalists, not Christians (with Hamilton becoming one only towards the end of his life).
Further, if you are going to attack Madison’s personal character, you should know that those three had personal character flaws far worse than Madison’s. Doesn’t the Bible say something about, by their fruits you shall know them and faith without works is dead….These three, from your perspective, lived very un-Godly lifestyles.
G. Morris had a sex life that put Clinton’s to shame. He was an avid fornicator and adulterer. Hamilton too was an adulterer and died in a very “un-Christian” duel. And Wilson was a deadbeat who lived the end of his life running from creditors and finally died a pauper after serving time in debtors’ prison.
[...] Now that James J. Goswick is starting to see that Madison was not a Christian, just like him, he seeks to minimize his importance as a Founder and attack his character, both physical and personal. He calls Madison “a little fish compared to the other framer’s [sic]” and concludes: In the end, Madison was a contradiction, who was weak in character as well as physically, changing his friends as well as views at the whim of a hat. No comment should be made about his faith…. [...]
This fits with theistic rationalism which believes that all religions worship the same God.>>
If only his Pastor, friends, and neighbors said the same thing, but they didn’t.
Rev. Balmaine, who was probably closer to him than anyone, and talked with him regarding spiritual issues rejects the theistic rationalist view.
“Having been often asked concerning his religious sentiments, I give the following , received from the Rev. Dr. Balmaine, who married his near relative, and by whom Mr. Madison was himself married…His political associations with those of infidel principles(Jefferson comes to mind)…the (memorial)…IT IS DRAWN UP ON THE SUPPOSITION OF THE TRUTH OF CHRISTIANITY…attended public worship in his neighborhood, invited ministers of religion to his house, had family prayers on such occasions…His minister-the Rev. Mr. Jones. and some of his neighbors openly expressed their conviction, that, from his conversation and bearing during the latter years of his life, he must be considered as receiving the Christian system to be divine.
Meade, Old Churches Vol II.
Also, one of his orators at his death believed he was a christian based on testimony from his minister. Madison may not have been a fundamentalist, but was
known as a Christian and a faithful member of his
church.
In Mass. where teachers of “Protestant Christianity”
were by law funded with govt. $$, a huge amount of
such aid went to Congregational Churches which
preached theological unitarianism, theological
universalism, and elevated reason over revelation (in
other words which taught Jefferson’s and Adams’
infidel unitarian Christianity>>
You would have to find evidence supporting
congregational churches are unitarians and believed
reason was superior to the bible.
In any event, the thrust of the Remonstrance was to argue for separation of Church & State>>
Another contradiction of James Madison. I don’t trust
him. In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill
which economically aided a Bible Society in its goal
of the mass distribution of the Bible. Debates and
Proceedings in the Congress of the United States 1325,
12th Cong., 2nd Sess. (Washington: Gales & Seaton
1853) (“An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of
Philadelphia. Be it enacted, &c., That the duties
arising and due to the United States upon certain
stereotype plates, imported during the last year into
the port of Philadelphia, on board the ship Brilliant,
by the Bible Society of Philadelphia, for the purpose
of printing editions of the Holy Bible, be and the
same are hereby remitted, on behalf of the United
States, to the said society: and any bond or security
given for the securing of the payment of the said
duties shall be cancelled. Approved February 2,
1813.”)
He was the 4th President of the nation and the chief architect of the US Constitution.>>
The other framer’s shelved his version of it.
I agree that Hamilton, Wilson, and G. Morris were also “key Framers” and my research shows they were theistic rationalists, not Christians (with Hamilton becoming one only towards the end of his life).>>
The evidence overwhelms the evidence for this statement.