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	<title>Comments on: The Freemasons!&#8230;The Illuminati!&#8230;and Kirk and Madsen!</title>
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	<link>http://www.positiveliberty.com/2006/01/the-freemasonsthe-illuminatiand-hunter-and-madsen.html</link>
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	<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 06:25:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Hunter Madsen</title>
		<link>http://www.positiveliberty.com/2006/01/the-freemasonsthe-illuminatiand-hunter-and-madsen.html#comment-724987</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter Madsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 00:23:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>As one of the authors of that 'all but forgotten' book in discussion - AFTER THE BALL: HOW AMERICA WILL CONQUER ITS FEAR OF GAYS IN THE '90S -- I agree that the religious right has been deliberately distorting the book's relevance to the modern gay rights movement.  Few gays today remember the book.  

For anyone still interested, ATB was published in 1989, and stirred a ruckus at the time (Time, Newsweek, Wash. Post, even the Wall St. Journal ran an excerpt).  Its authors were excoriated by most of what constituted the gay activist leadership in the US at that time, mainly because the book harshly disparaged their tired tactics, analyzed the psychological underpinnings of homophobia and, informed by that analysis, laid out a quite different communication strategy for gaining gay rights -- a strategy that drove self-styled queer radicals up the wall.  Both straights and gay moderates, however, loved the book.  I'm told that excerpts of the article upon which the book was based were read aloud, in affirmation, at the founding meeting of GLAAD.  The book's thinking preceded and, in many ways, presaged the better-publicized cases by made Bruce Bawer, Sullivan, and the rest of that conservative crowd.

None of this explains, however, why religious bigots continue to cast Kirk and Madsen, preposterously, as the gay movement's Elders of Zion.  They do so because our book spoke in alarmingly direct language about the brute mechanics of public opinion manipulation, and about the Religious Right's aggressive use of those mechanics.  Worse, we dared to suggest that gays fight fire with fire, and laid out a plan for doing so.  In this plan, the Right had found a simulacrum of its much sought "gay agenda", the blueprint for the gigantic gay conspiracy that it wished to believe was on the march.  Their thinking is hooey, and their own rhetorical use of ATB is so deceptive that it marks them out clearly for what they are: manipulative liars.  In any case, I must sit by, and watch them misrepresent my writing, over and over, year after year.  Tiresome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As one of the authors of that &#8216;all but forgotten&#8217; book in discussion - AFTER THE BALL: HOW AMERICA WILL CONQUER ITS FEAR OF GAYS IN THE &#8216;90S &#8212; I agree that the religious right has been deliberately distorting the book&#8217;s relevance to the modern gay rights movement.  Few gays today remember the book.  </p>
<p>For anyone still interested, ATB was published in 1989, and stirred a ruckus at the time (Time, Newsweek, Wash. Post, even the Wall St. Journal ran an excerpt).  Its authors were excoriated by most of what constituted the gay activist leadership in the US at that time, mainly because the book harshly disparaged their tired tactics, analyzed the psychological underpinnings of homophobia and, informed by that analysis, laid out a quite different communication strategy for gaining gay rights &#8212; a strategy that drove self-styled queer radicals up the wall.  Both straights and gay moderates, however, loved the book.  I&#8217;m told that excerpts of the article upon which the book was based were read aloud, in affirmation, at the founding meeting of GLAAD.  The book&#8217;s thinking preceded and, in many ways, presaged the better-publicized cases by made Bruce Bawer, Sullivan, and the rest of that conservative crowd.</p>
<p>None of this explains, however, why religious bigots continue to cast Kirk and Madsen, preposterously, as the gay movement&#8217;s Elders of Zion.  They do so because our book spoke in alarmingly direct language about the brute mechanics of public opinion manipulation, and about the Religious Right&#8217;s aggressive use of those mechanics.  Worse, we dared to suggest that gays fight fire with fire, and laid out a plan for doing so.  In this plan, the Right had found a simulacrum of its much sought &#8220;gay agenda&#8221;, the blueprint for the gigantic gay conspiracy that it wished to believe was on the march.  Their thinking is hooey, and their own rhetorical use of ATB is so deceptive that it marks them out clearly for what they are: manipulative liars.  In any case, I must sit by, and watch them misrepresent my writing, over and over, year after year.  Tiresome.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert e.Deininger</title>
		<link>http://www.positiveliberty.com/2006/01/the-freemasonsthe-illuminatiand-hunter-and-madsen.html#comment-7311</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert e.Deininger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 May 2006 21:11:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://positiveliberty.com/2006/01/the-freemasonsthe-illuminatiand-hunter-and-madsen.html#comment-7311</guid>
		<description>G.Washington And other free MASONS wore their crests as they set up this country the way they felt it should be run and since that day men like him have the say in everything that happen in this country. I would like to spend a weekend with this group     and straighten out the road they have put us on before the camps and gated communities which will put my grandchildren and possibly my own children on the outside looking in, but down deep a man like me scares the hell out of them ,tHEY WOULDN'T WANT TO FACE THE TRUTH.
     r/e.deininger Teaneck NJ</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>G.Washington And other free MASONS wore their crests as they set up this country the way they felt it should be run and since that day men like him have the say in everything that happen in this country. I would like to spend a weekend with this group     and straighten out the road they have put us on before the camps and gated communities which will put my grandchildren and possibly my own children on the outside looking in, but down deep a man like me scares the hell out of them ,tHEY WOULDN&#8217;T WANT TO FACE THE TRUTH.<br />
     r/e.deininger Teaneck NJ</p>
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		<title>By: Positive Liberty &#187; Blog Archive &#187; More on Marketing the Evil Gay Agenda</title>
		<link>http://www.positiveliberty.com/2006/01/the-freemasonsthe-illuminatiand-hunter-and-madsen.html#comment-6894</link>
		<dc:creator>Positive Liberty &#187; Blog Archive &#187; More on Marketing the Evil Gay Agenda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Apr 2006 15:04:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://positiveliberty.com/2006/01/the-freemasonsthe-illuminatiand-hunter-and-madsen.html#comment-6894</guid>
		<description>[...] Rather, I&#8217;m going to update a point I made earlier when I discussed Kupelian&#8217;s book. The book relies heavily on Marshall Kirk&#8217;s and Hunter Madsen&#8217;s book, After the Ball &#8212; a progay rights book, written by two marketers who suggested using classic marketing techniques to change people&#8217;s minds in favor of gay rights &#8212; as the prototype for The Marketing of Evil. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Rather, I&#8217;m going to update a point I made earlier when I discussed Kupelian&#8217;s book. The book relies heavily on Marshall Kirk&#8217;s and Hunter Madsen&#8217;s book, After the Ball &#8212; a progay rights book, written by two marketers who suggested using classic marketing techniques to change people&#8217;s minds in favor of gay rights &#8212; as the prototype for The Marketing of Evil. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Daddy, Papa &#38; Me</title>
		<link>http://www.positiveliberty.com/2006/01/the-freemasonsthe-illuminatiand-hunter-and-madsen.html#comment-2155</link>
		<dc:creator>Daddy, Papa &#38; Me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Jan 2006 23:34:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Tuesday Toutings&lt;/strong&gt;

Wow, lots today, gathered over a week or more and bookmarked for...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Tuesday Toutings</strong></p>
<p>Wow, lots today, gathered over a week or more and bookmarked for&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Kuznicki</title>
		<link>http://www.positiveliberty.com/2006/01/the-freemasonsthe-illuminatiand-hunter-and-madsen.html#comment-2119</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Kuznicki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jan 2006 14:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://positiveliberty.com/2006/01/the-freemasonsthe-illuminatiand-hunter-and-madsen.html#comment-2119</guid>
		<description>It's a bizarre opinion piece, that's for sure, one that sets a new standard even for the WND. 

It also confirms one of the things I've always noticed about conservatives, and that ought to be made into a post of its own soon:  Quite often I find among them the bad habit of identifying oppositional ideas and/or political programs &lt;em&gt;from ten or more years ago&lt;/em&gt;, and then claiming that they are a current menace to American society.  It seems unthinkable to the author of this piece, for example, that perhaps the red-hot gay sex lives of the 1970s may have cooled down a bit in the age of AIDS, and that gay marriage may actually be teaching us some responsibility, too.  Heaven knows that my sex life as a married and faithful gay man is nothing like what many of the pioneers of gay life have had.  It's just not on my agenda.  (Frankly, I can't even imagine finding time for five hundred sex partners in a year, much less libido.)

The same can be noted, I think, in many conservatives' ideas about present-day feminism.  Listen to them, and you might think that feminism was all about separatism, identity politics, even bra-burning.  But most of the really cutting-edge feminist theory today is (somewhat weirdly) interested in &lt;em&gt;masculinity&lt;/em&gt;, and in critiquing men's images of manliness.  All political considerations aside, I would think that conservatives ought to find this real present-day feminism a lot more threatening to the established order.  Yet they're still blasting away at the brand of separatist feminism that went completely out of fashion at least a decade ago.  I guess that to be really appropriate as a target, an idea must also have few defenders; it makes the victories easier.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a bizarre opinion piece, that&#8217;s for sure, one that sets a new standard even for the WND. </p>
<p>It also confirms one of the things I&#8217;ve always noticed about conservatives, and that ought to be made into a post of its own soon:  Quite often I find among them the bad habit of identifying oppositional ideas and/or political programs <em>from ten or more years ago</em>, and then claiming that they are a current menace to American society.  It seems unthinkable to the author of this piece, for example, that perhaps the red-hot gay sex lives of the 1970s may have cooled down a bit in the age of AIDS, and that gay marriage may actually be teaching us some responsibility, too.  Heaven knows that my sex life as a married and faithful gay man is nothing like what many of the pioneers of gay life have had.  It&#8217;s just not on my agenda.  (Frankly, I can&#8217;t even imagine finding time for five hundred sex partners in a year, much less libido.)</p>
<p>The same can be noted, I think, in many conservatives&#8217; ideas about present-day feminism.  Listen to them, and you might think that feminism was all about separatism, identity politics, even bra-burning.  But most of the really cutting-edge feminist theory today is (somewhat weirdly) interested in <em>masculinity</em>, and in critiquing men&#8217;s images of manliness.  All political considerations aside, I would think that conservatives ought to find this real present-day feminism a lot more threatening to the established order.  Yet they&#8217;re still blasting away at the brand of separatist feminism that went completely out of fashion at least a decade ago.  I guess that to be really appropriate as a target, an idea must also have few defenders; it makes the victories easier.</p>
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		<title>By: spyder</title>
		<link>http://www.positiveliberty.com/2006/01/the-freemasonsthe-illuminatiand-hunter-and-madsen.html#comment-2107</link>
		<dc:creator>spyder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Jan 2006 21:09:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I get a chuckle everyday, as i walk into downtown, passing in front of the newly renovated Masonic Temple which sits directly across the street from the Roman Catholic Cathedral and Chancery.  For NYE this year, the local lesbian rock band played in the main, and stunningly beautifully redone, concert hall of the Mason's, while the local Symphony, conducted by a well-known gay and internationally respected  maestro, played in the Cathedral.  It is very difficult to see any conspiracies that would link all of this together.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I get a chuckle everyday, as i walk into downtown, passing in front of the newly renovated Masonic Temple which sits directly across the street from the Roman Catholic Cathedral and Chancery.  For NYE this year, the local lesbian rock band played in the main, and stunningly beautifully redone, concert hall of the Mason&#8217;s, while the local Symphony, conducted by a well-known gay and internationally respected  maestro, played in the Cathedral.  It is very difficult to see any conspiracies that would link all of this together.</p>
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